tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post8097249867472309861..comments2024-03-14T09:50:40.819+00:00Comments on Dr Grumble: Why are fat people fat?Dr Grumblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04417731064007601504noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-16629834877889024392019-10-05T13:36:25.000+01:002019-10-05T13:36:25.000+01:00Thanks for your information. Please accept my comm...Thanks for your information. Please accept my comments to still connect with your blog. <a href="https://www.teroes.com/2017/10/8-shocking-obesity-animals.html" title="8 Shocking Obesity Animals" rel="nofollow"> Shockingly Obese Animals </a><br>Teroes.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15140145428578033010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-52309044375228929472010-07-22T10:09:20.582+01:002010-07-22T10:09:20.582+01:00The effect of these drugs is a clear demonstration...The effect of these drugs is a clear demonstration that there are things beyond a patient's control that can affect their weight.Dr Grumblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417731064007601504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-38593806768670698922010-07-21T23:05:30.252+01:002010-07-21T23:05:30.252+01:00I was always either underweight or normal weight, ...I was always either underweight or normal weight, my whole life. Then, since starting to take olanzapine rapidly skipped by overweight to land at obese within a few months. <br /><br />It's not a short-term treatment, I've been on it for years, I've been obese for years. <br /><br />I had to make a choice between stopping taking the pills, losing weight and becoming unwell, or keep taking the pills, stay fat and stay relatively well. Sensibly, I chose the latter.<br /><br />Such is the stigma of being fat that many people choose the former. That's shocking and depressing.<br /><br />I can either be fat and miserable about it, or fat and ok with it, or even happy with it! The latter two make for a better life.incurable hippiehttp://www.rebelgrrlzine.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-74098960797893245472010-07-06T23:33:26.420+01:002010-07-06T23:33:26.420+01:00Whether you start out fat or thin weight loss shou...Whether you start out fat or thin weight loss should always raise concern. I teach that if fat people lose weight you should worry that they might have cancer. Sometimes people think I am joking but I am not.Dr Grumblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417731064007601504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-77423384985588674132010-07-06T22:10:53.209+01:002010-07-06T22:10:53.209+01:00Semi topic hijack:
I had Jaundice, and had lost a ...Semi topic hijack:<br />I had Jaundice, and had lost a large amount of weight due to gallstones. I was weak, unable to work and barely able to get to the shops (before I was overweight - I was cycling 20 miles a day communting - but aerobically fit and strong).<br /><br />The amount of people who said "wow, you look great!" when I was days before my ERCP and looked *awful*. <br /><br />We need to stop simplistically associating weight loss with health and weight gain with the opposite.leymoohttp://blog.leymoo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-70623839299090495492010-06-27T09:44:33.199+01:002010-06-27T09:44:33.199+01:00"encourage them, above all, to eat chocolate...."encourage them, above all, to eat chocolate. It is a vegetable after all!"<br /><br />So is suger!Tospernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-30818116759108949292010-06-27T08:03:47.257+01:002010-06-27T08:03:47.257+01:00A&E Charge Nurse
The article suggests that Br...A&E Charge Nurse<br /><br />The article suggests that British children are becoming obese at twice the rate of American children<br /><br />1.But evidence suggests that increases in childhood obesity rates in America are levelling off, so any country still in the upward curve of the trend will have higher rates of increase than the Americans. So you would expect British children to be getting fatter at a faster rate than the Americans. <br /><br />2.The article implies that British children are getting fatter at a faster rate than the Americans because they eat more sweets, but<br /><br />•Evidence also suggests that fat British kids do not eat more sweets than thin British kids (they eat more fat and protein), which would suggest that eating sweets per se is not the cause of obesity. <br /><br /> “In short - what has changed are eating patterns which seem to be culturally driven rather than by a novel disease process.”<br /><br />1.Given that thin people are also affected by the changing cultural pattern –why are there still thin people?<br /><br />2.Changes in behaiour could lead to the emergence of any number of “novel disease processes”? e.g. cancer from pesticides.<br /><br />3.Weight gain in response to illness and brain injury are recognised medical phenomena. So weight gain can be caused by a disease process.<br /><br />4.Weight gain can be caused by chemicals e.g. the well documented side effect of some medicinal drugs.<br /><br />5. Genetic variation alters the patient’s response to a wide range of medicinal drugs (chemicals), surely genetic variation could account for a range of responses to new ways of producing and preparing foodstuffs , for example, an allele combination that causes a failure to accurately monitor the intake of certain food stuffs?<br /><br />I would say that there has been a move towards the industrialisation of food production and preparation in the last 50 years or so, at the same time there have been societal changes, these are correlated with a rise in obesity. <br /><br />But correlation is not causation and more research is needed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-89110331270734535952010-06-26T17:31:15.843+01:002010-06-26T17:31:15.843+01:00Accepting the usual provisos with any item in the ...Accepting the usual provisos with any item in the Daily Mail this reports claims claims - They (British children) are getting fat almost twice as quickly as American youngsters as they eat double the amount of sugary and savoury treats.<br /><br />Independent research company Datamonitor said average annual spending on sweets and chocolates for children in this country is £372 - equivalent to around 850 Mars bars. That is more than double the £150 for American youngsters.<br /><br />The amount spent on savoury snacks such as crisps is put at £73.24 in the UK, compared with £39.51 in the U.S. <br /><br />British children also eat more sugary breakfast cereals, ice cream and ready meals. More than one in three British children aged five to 13 are already overweight or obese.<br /><br />But that figure is predicted to soar at a rate of 2.1 per cent a year through to 2014, far higher than the 1.3 per cent annual rise expected for the U.S. - by 2014, some 38.6% of UK youngsters - a total of 2.5million - will be too heavy.<br /><br />Social changes may be largely responsible for rising childhood obesity. For example, with more mothers going out to work or unused to cooking, children often live on takeaways or ready meals. <br /><br />If they are looked after by grandparents, they may be indulged with unhealthy treats. An analysis of 12,000 three-year-olds suggested the risk of being overweight was 34% higher if grandparents cared for them full time. <br /><br />At the same time youngsters are taking less exercise but spending more time watching TV, playing computer games and on the internet. <br /><br />In short - what has changed are eating patterns which seem to be culturally driven rather than by a novel disease process.the a&e charge nursenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-58160261557296070262010-06-25T12:15:34.374+01:002010-06-25T12:15:34.374+01:00the a&e charge nurse
said..."But do you...the a&e charge nurse <br /><br />said..."But do you have a view on this - this is the battleground as I see it?<br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289376/British-children-getting-fatter-twice-rate-Americans.html"<br /><br />Sorry i'm not quite sure in what sense you are referring to here?<br /><br />Could you please clarify? -Although I wont be able to respond before sunday.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-7568985571760487242010-06-25T08:41:16.925+01:002010-06-25T08:41:16.925+01:00Perhaps you can give us YOUR explanation as to why...Perhaps you can give us YOUR explanation as to why so many adults and children are obese?<br />I don’t claim to have one.<br /><br />OK that much we agree on - in the sense that there is no single explanation for obesity in every case.<br /><br />But do you have a view on this - this is the battleground as I see it?<br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289376/British-children-getting-fatter-twice-rate-Americans.htmlthe a&e charge nursenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-2782969847349951792010-06-24T19:58:01.442+01:002010-06-24T19:58:01.442+01:00the a&e charge nurse said...
"So now its...the a&e charge nurse said...<br /><br />"So now its food? -I thought it was their parents?" Pedantic, anonymous (10:44) very pedantic - hair splitting hardly advances your objection to my comment, does it?<br /><br />Er yes it does actually –lets see now you said<br /><br />“ yes, the RISK of obesity is likely to be greater for many children once they are repeatedly exposed to certain foodstuffs.”<br /><br />That is not the same as saying that it is all the fault of fat parents is it? <br /><br />1.In fact that could go some way to explaining why thin people can have obese children, (unless you really do believe that the rise in obesity is caused by obese sex gods?)<br /><br />2.Further if exposure to certain food stuffs increases the risk of obesity in children, then what is the mechanism for this? Is it an addictive chemical in the food for instance? (I feel a law suit coming on!)<br /><br /><br />“You know perfectly well what I mean - the same line of argument can be applied to the children of alcoholics or smokers.”<br /><br /> Er I wouldn’t bank on that if I were you!<br /><br />The problem with stretching your analogy to drinkers and smokers is that it is far easier to understand why the children of non drinkers and smokers take up the habit. All those attractive role models on the television, wide scale social acceptance, the wild boy rebel image etc etc etc.<br /><br /> But as far as obesity goes, role models for obese children of thin parents are pretty thin on the ground, and your certainly not going to get respect from your peers for being a rebel - more likely a punch in the gob!<br /><br />"Nobody is suggesting that ALL children adopt the same dysfunctional pattern as their parents when it comes to drinking, smoking or eating too much, but compared to children without these influences a significantly higher proportion follow in their parents steps (an inconvenient fact you have continually chosen to ignore). "<br />- how many more times and in how many different ways can i say;<br /><br />1.If the current rise in obesity is all down to fat parents explain the increase since the 1950’s – I mean a comparatively small (compared to today) numbers of obese people must have been at it like rabbits! <br /><br />Perhaps you can give us YOUR explanation as to why so many adults and children are obese?<br /><br />1.I don’t claim to have one, I just object to half baked illogical "evidence". <br /><br />2.I humbly suggest that we apply proper scientific principles instead of cod psychology and do some more research. (lots more) <br /><br />In the meantime, just until we are sure, perhaps we should abandon all the handwringing and moral outrage? its certainly proved useless as either a preventative measure or a dietary aid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-15470650658314338822010-06-24T09:35:12.373+01:002010-06-24T09:35:12.373+01:00My mistake, I thought they were married!
And of ...My mistake, I thought they were married! <br /><br />And of course she is nice! She's a distinguished scientist of repute, that's why she's now a Dame.<br /><br />But even distinguished scientists do meet a stumbling block sometimes, and the admirable thing is that they persevere; rise to the challenge, even switch areas of interest as I understand she's now studying stroke.<br /><br />... and you had your lab next door?! You must be a distinguished scientist too Dr Grumble! :-)Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-71066275497592786762010-06-24T06:48:40.529+01:002010-06-24T06:48:40.529+01:00Whoa! It was Mike Stock and Nancy Rothwell. Mike w...Whoa! It was Mike Stock and Nancy Rothwell. Mike was the professor and Nancy the junior partner. Nancy, the quiet one who beavered away in the lab is now Dame Nancy. As I said I didn't really know her at the time but I have heard her lecture since and she too comes over as a very nice person.Dr Grumblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417731064007601504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-29510502083527434452010-06-23T23:45:19.957+01:002010-06-23T23:45:19.957+01:00Thank you Dr G, only science changes it's mind...Thank you Dr G, only science changes it's mind all the time and I do wonder if some scientist will come back with findings relating slow metabolism to weight gain soon! Was maybe this was 'a' reason Dame Stock changed the course of her research? She met a dead end after her husband's death and couldn't prove, beyond doubt, that metabolism and size are 'not' related?<br /><br />... and that the beauty of scientific research Dr G, it's like is like Sherlock Holmes! It never seazes to search for clues - then amaze! :-)Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-5479716680425925142010-06-23T23:34:35.417+01:002010-06-23T23:34:35.417+01:00I can't really tell you much more, Sam. Rothwe...I can't really tell you much more, Sam. Rothwell and Stock just happened to have a lab next to mine. I was working in a completely different area. Mike was a very nice man. I just wonder if perhaps he was too nice. It's tough world in science. Nancy always seemed to be beavering away in the lab and I scarcely knew her. I would never have guessed that one day she would be a dame and invited to talk on Question Time. As it happens I have heard her speak fairly recently. She moved into a new area - stroke. She picked up some lead from the obesity work and decided to change track. Quite a story there I would think but I really don't know any more.Dr Grumblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417731064007601504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-17362610350241077282010-06-23T23:22:51.345+01:002010-06-23T23:22:51.345+01:00"Sam now requires a synopsis of the work of R..."Sam now requires a synopsis of the work of Rothwell and Stock! "<br /><br />... and why the exclamation mark, eh?!!!<br /><br />It was 'you' who put what's his name on 'your' reading list, wasn't it?!!!! So you knew people, including non scientific, will read it!! And would want to understand?!<br /><br />... now down to business .... :-)<br /><br />OK, so rats will produce more energy the more food they eat, more so if that food is junk, and more so for the younger ones, who because of this, they won't gain so much weight as the older ones - but this varies according to the 'room' temprature ... and the colder, the more food they eat, the more energy produced, but they wanted to know where this excess energy was going. One assumption that it goes into building 'a brown fat layer' to protect the animal from the cold.<br /><br />Why is that controversial though? The article you referred to says that M Stock was fought for these findings - why?! They make perfect sence to me! ... and of course, the more food you eat, the more energy needed to digest!<br /><br />... what happened after Dr G? Why did Stock become popular again? I am finding this fascinating!Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-58386838882307849722010-06-23T21:18:37.384+01:002010-06-23T21:18:37.384+01:00Having admitted I am not an expert in this field, ...Having admitted I am not an expert in this field, Sam now requires a synopsis of the work of Rothwell and Stock! <br /><br />I am really not the person to ask but they were interested in looking at energy balance and found that if rats eat too much they burn off more energy. The problem initially was making animals fat but this problem was solved when it was discovered that if you feed a cafeteria diet to rats they eat about 80% more and get fat. But young rats don’t gain much weight because they expend more energy. Older rats gain weight rapidly. But even the older rats expend more energy than controls. This process depends on the ambient temperature. <br /><br />It is too complicated for poor old Grumble but they were interested in trying to understand this process. Where was this energy going? Was it the energy used in digesting the food or laying down fat? Or was it from the activity of brown fat which in some animals and young humans makes heat to warm the animal up in the cold. <br /><br />Fat people often think they have a slow metabolism. (There’s a comment above about when to treat hypothyroidism which may relate to this.) The reality is otherwise and it is this sort of thing that Rothwell and Stock were trying to get a handle on.<br /><br />Are you out there Dame Nancy? Has poor old Grumble got it right?Dr Grumblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417731064007601504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-80395314957519113672010-06-23T20:36:18.874+01:002010-06-23T20:36:18.874+01:00I think that there are different reasons for diffe...I think that there are different reasons for different people being overweight and that if research is to have any usefulness at all, it will have to work out what those different reasons are.<br /><br />In my case, the desire to feel better short term outweighs my desire to feel better long term. I think that this is a problem with a lot of people with unwanted habits, including some people who drink, use drugs, self harm (which I used to do), under- or over-eat (which I do), under or over exercise (which I used to do), gamble etc.<br /><br />I wonder whether the world we live in encourages this? <br /><br />Or could there be some obscure explanation like pollutants affecting us? <br /><br />Meanwhile, I sit here tonight looking sadly at my food diary and concluding that if I want to hit my target I only have 300 calories before bedtime. However, I regard tomatoes as free food (only two cals for a cherry tomato) so I shall have a couple of big handfuls of them and a mug of chocolate. But oh for half a dozen mugs of chocolate plus a bar of dark chocolate. I really want those feel-good chemicals.Hungrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-50241021694467230262010-06-23T20:28:27.186+01:002010-06-23T20:28:27.186+01:00Dr G,
Can you please summerise the main findings/...Dr G,<br /><br />Can you please summerise the main findings/points of Michael J Stock work on obesity? ... because it is hard to ubderstand for a non doc/scientist like me.<br /><br />Thank you :-)Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-61750616440710727542010-06-23T12:35:22.703+01:002010-06-23T12:35:22.703+01:00"So now its food? -I thought it was their par..."So now its food? -I thought it was their parents?" Pedantic, anonymous (10:44) very pedantic - hair splitting hardly advances your objection to my comment, does it?<br /><br />You know perfectly well what I mean - the same line of argument can be applied to the children of alcoholics or smokers.<br />Nobody is suggesting that ALL children adopt the same dysfunctional pattern as their parents when it comes to drinking, smoking or eating too much, but compared to children without these influences a significantly higher proportion follow in their parents steps (an inconvenient fact you have continually chosen to ignore). <br /><br />If you do not want to go down that road perhaps you can give us YOUR explanation as to why so many adults and children are obese?the a&e charge nursenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-8622726762566514082010-06-23T10:44:53.746+01:002010-06-23T10:44:53.746+01:00A& E charge nurse
"You then go on to sit...A& E charge nurse<br /><br />"You then go on to site this post and compare German obesity levels to the average in Europe. What does that tell us" - that the thyroid hypothesis is likely to have a negligible effect on the the overall population of obese people in any given country (probably)."<br /><br />1. If you recall the original poster on TSH said SOME cases of obesity! <br /><br />2. I dont recall any statistical analysis of thyroid problem prevalence data by country in your post - so the evidence YOU cited on German obesity levels still contributed nothing to the debate. <br /><br />"the RISK of obesity is likely to be greater for many children once they are repeatedly exposed to certain foodstuffs."<br /><br />-So now its food?<br />-I thought it was their parents?<br />-How do you explain obese kids with thin parents? <br /><br />"In an area with uncertainty I accept I might be wrong BUT I need something more robust on which to shift paradigm - or put another way I do not see the harm in minimising the effect possible causative factors with the proviso this may not work in ALL circumstances."<br /><br />I see perhaps we could have agreed on that if it wasn't for this<br /><br />"I was very interested in New kind of GP's observations but leaving aside the self-medicating with food hypothesis, I think there is a simpler, and perhaps more banal explanation?<br /><br />I suspect the overwhelming majority of patients (who are obese) have been brought up in homes where their own parents have been rather too liberal with crisps, pop, sweets and sugar/salt saturated main meals."<br /><br />In an area of uncertainty you seem mighty certain!<br /><br />As for the Hun - Grow up!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-3613542048555619052010-06-23T10:08:15.800+01:002010-06-23T10:08:15.800+01:00"please remember there is more than 1 anon po..."please remember there is more than 1 anon poster on this site" - yes, I know anonymous (9:40) that is why I include times to differentiate one from the other.<br />Incidentally is it really too much trouble to invent a moniker?<br /><br />"You then go on to site this post and compare German obesity levels to the average in Europe. What does that tell us" - that the thyroid hypothesis is likely to have a negligible effect on the the overall population of obese people in any given country (probably).<br /><br />"But obesity did exist 50 years ago. So your point is what?" - prevalence has changed dramatically, that's what people so worried about.<br /><br />"Obesity rates have increased - true, according to you its fat families and the bad role model they present to their kids" - yes, the RISK of obesity is likely to be greater for many children once they are repeatedly exposed to certain foodstuffs.<br />It's one of the reasons schools have taken a firmer role in health education and policing children's lunch boxes.<br /><br />"Please lets stop with the faulty logic and knee jerk reactions" - well, I'm giving my honest opinion (as it stands today).<br />In an area with uncertainty I accept I might be wrong BUT I need something more robust on which to shift paradigm - or put another way I do not see the harm in minimising the effect possible causative factors with the proviso this may not work in ALL circumstances.<br /><br />You don't like the term Krauts, so how about 'the hun', instead - don't forget there IS a world cup on so perhaps we are allowed amnesty on one or two politically incorrect phrase?the a&e charge nursenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-9781430612808790492010-06-23T10:06:10.052+01:002010-06-23T10:06:10.052+01:00"It does seem to me that if fat people have f..."It does seem to me that if fat people have fat pets it might be more behavioural than to do with, say, how hungry fat people feel."<br /><br />Why?<br />Lets accept your premise for a moment - <br /><br />Could it not be the fact that they constantly feel hungry all the time that leads to them giving their pets more food than necessary?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-31075560891577685852010-06-23T09:40:22.930+01:002010-06-23T09:40:22.930+01:00A&E Charge Nurse,
I know absolutely nothing a...A&E Charge Nurse,<br /><br />I know absolutely nothing about TSH (please remember there is more than 1 anon poster on this site) but the poster suggests that;<br /><br /><br />"In just about every other country in the West (think USA, Canada, France, Germany, Spain, Italy Belgium, Holland, Sweden etc,), you can expect treatment with a TSH of 5 and upwards, and some countries (Germany & Sweden) even treat patients with TSHs as low as 2.5 and 3."<br /><br />You then go on to site this post and compare German obesity levels to the average in Europe. What does that tell us<br /><br />1. Nothing - abosolutely nothing. <br />2. Perhaps I should pick out the Swedes who are not the most obese in Europe?<br /><br />Obesity wasn't measured 50 years ago - true (at last we can agree)<br /><br />But obesity did exist 50 years ago. So your point is what?<br /><br />Obesity rates have increased - true, according to you its fat families and the bad role model they present to their kids. <br /><br />Well in that case, the increase in obesity must be due to a population expolosion amongst the obese. According to evolutionary theory only the fittest survive and reproduce, so the obese are the new sex gods and thin people are going to be wiped out!<br /><br />Please lets stop with the faulty logic and knee jerk reactions, you are better than this A&E charge nurse! <br /><br />And using the term krauts!<br /> - smacks head repeatedlyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25200961.post-15674344221020264952010-06-23T09:25:26.834+01:002010-06-23T09:25:26.834+01:00Expert though I am not, there are a lot of puzzlin...Expert though I am not, there are a lot of puzzling things going on which even those in the know do not undertand. Instant cures of diabetes following gastric bypass surgery is one. This is plainly nothing to do with the patient's psyche and everything to do with the physiology of the gut.<br /><br />As for fat animals I did once have a lab alongside Mike Stock and Nancy Rothwell. They had no difficulty making their rats fat by just giving them a plentiful supply of food from the cafeteria. If you put humans in the environment we were designed to live in you don't see any fat people. There just isn't enough food around.<br /><br />The question then arises as to whether the humans who get fat when food is in plently are just greedy compared with those who do not or whether they are perhaps driven by some mechanism that is making them much more hungry than those who stay slim. It does seem to me that if fat people have fat pets it might be more behavioural than to do with, say, how hungry fat people feel. But even if fat people on average do have fat pets it does not mean that the mechanism is the same for all fat people. And, in any case, it does seem that there are thin people who do not have to try to be thin. They are plainly not controlling their urges. Their urges to eat are enough but no more than is necessary to keep them at the right weight.Dr Grumblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417731064007601504noreply@blogger.com