12 November 2008

Paice, Needham and Dr Scott

Read the latest here. Is Dr Grumble the only one who thinks that a great deal of time and effort is now going to be wasted on this whole sorry saga?


Anonymous said...

No Dr G, After MMC and MTAS, no one was held to account for the grave injustice that affected thousands of doctors. It seems this lack of accountability has given the wrong signal to those responsible for training junior doctors that they can do anything to the juniors and get away with it! This is wrong specially because the first duty of a good leader is to 'guard!'

If the sequence of events happened to Dr Scot jr the way we heard them, then this was stark abuse of powers which must NEVER left unpunished as if it does, it will shake further the near to noneexistant trust the juniors may have left for their 'elders!'

And we also await the GMC results on those who were reported for their role in MTAS and MMC and hope they too will be held to account for their gross failures to protect, nourish, motivate and educate the juniors in training .. the duty of EVERY 'real' leader.

The juniors are the future and if we do not protect that, what is there to protect?

Dr Grumble said...

It's very strange, Sam, that the people driving through MMC and MTAS claimed that the consultants of old were the ones that were abusing their power. Now those very same people are accused of doing the same.

Of course there is still so much bitterness about MMC and MTAS that Dr G did think that he might be the only one to think that perhaps we should now move on. But this is not much to do with MMC or MTAS. It just happens to involve people who were heavily involved and didn't fall on their swords. The boil was never lanced.

Doc Doc said...

Dr G

On one hand I'm wholey against the use of public money that'll be used for the investigation, however on this occasion I feel it is justified.

Can't actually see any significant punishment being invoked against Paice et al, but they may think twice before abusing their power in the future.

As they are buddies or members of the GMC can't really expect a fair hearing, just hope Dr Scott Jr isn't dragged into it too much, am worried his career (if it isn't too marred already) could be further affected.

Dr Grumble said...

Yes Doc Doc. Dr G is well aware that the best thing for Dr Scott would be for this whole episode to be quickly forgotten.

Anonymous said...

Dr G "It's very strange, Sam, that the people driving through MMC and MTAS claimed that the consultants of old were the ones that were abusing their power. Now those very same people are accused of doing the same."

Well, two wrongs don't make a right Dr G .. We live in modern times, days of the "information revolution" so .. things can no longer be hidden and 'everyone' needs to watch their step. And, the rule of the law much be held high otherwise society would disintegrate into an anarchy!

Hence, we can't move on as you say before matters are put right. Rita Pal is right to follow her complaint .. and don't forget Dr G, the two deans held on to Scot JR for weeks and had absolutely no intention of letting him off the hook despite the stupid offence he was accused of! If it weren't for the press and the medical bloggers, I don't think he would have been reprieved .. it seemed like a proper 'witch hunt' IMO .. That can not go unpunished!

Actually, I am very interested to see how the GMC will handle this case! I hope they will be clever enough not to let them off the hook so easily if they find them at fault .. because that would signal the moral downfall of this establishment too IMO

Dr Grumble said...

Do you think, Sam, that these people are just out for themselves or are they really trying to do their best for our junior doctors and are simply misguided? Dr G is really not sure. But he does remember with some bitterness that when he raised his concerns about MTAS and MMC he was quickly put down. And he was not the only one.

This latest incident does suggest that they cannot take any criticism and are still trying to silence all their critics. After all, these days using a very rude word in online banter does not really merit suspension. And there were other quick ways of dealing with the problem such as pressing the forum abuse button. So perhaps their action does merit censure.

As you say, seeing how the GMC responds to this given the enormous strength of feeling will be interesting.

Anonymous said...

"Do you think, Sam, that these people are just out for themselves or are they really trying to do their best for our junior doctors and are simply misguided?"

hehe :-) You are such a nice person Dr G! Simply 'misguided' donates 'idiocy! So, if they were, they shouldn't be in charge of the juniors in the first place! Who wants idiots for 'leaders', right?! :-D

.. And .. I do not believe they are idiots either! They knew 'exactly' what they were doing, only panicked and lost the 'plot' at the end because of all of us and the press.

The London deanery were stupid to issue their latest statement with the dean admitting the offence was 'very minor' but not explaining why, if this was the case, did she report the young doctor to his dean! And that endeavour to find something in his past! That was not 'idiocy' or doing 'the best' for him, this was 'vindictiveness!' .. Of the highest order too! Abuse of power is too little a statement for their offence IMO!

Anonymous said...

Hello Sam, how are you?

I can see exactly where you are coming from, Dr Grumble, and there is nothing wrong with having a measured approach in this issue particularly for the sake of Dr Scot Jnr's future career.

On balance though, I feel that both MTAS/MMC and the Dr Scot Jnr case will turn out to be important landmarks which will herald the beginning of a more reactive and questioning medical profession. A profession not just questioning the government but also itself. Because of this it will be a long time before Dr Scot Jnr is forgotten, so he will have to live with that.

I suspect the GMC are scratching their heads at the moment and don't have a clue what to do. One of the problems with Professors Paice, Needham and Black relates to the fact that, having opened this can of worms, they didn't then have the wit to see what they had done and where it was going. Any one of them could have reconsidered the situation and put an end to it.

As long as Dr Scot Jnr is good at his job, my view is that this incident will not leave him tarnished professionally although it would have done if it had happened a couple of years ago.


Anonymous said...

Agree with the Witch Doctor - speaking as someone with a lot of experience of public sector bureacracy, and a sort of 2nd hand acquaintance with the NHS, what I found bizarre about the Gruesome Threesome was that they didn't call time on it at some point. How hard would it have been to say: "I think the point about appropriate ways to express views has been made, shall we get back to more serious stuff?" and beat a strategic retreat? If they were really even half-shrewd politicians, that would have been the move.

Anyway, to have kept going with it for so long displayed comprehensively poor judgement, as well as making them a laughing stock. Do you think any of them will keep their grand Quango-jobs beyond the next expiry of term? I would expect "quietly re-shuffled to less demanding and high-profile roles", aka being put out to grass.

Anonymous said...

The GMC is an organisation that is always looking over its shoulders to see what people make of its decisions. With feelings running so high they may just take action against these two. Damaging somebody's career without a very good reason is a serious matter.

Anonymous said...

Hello Witch Doctor :-)

I am fine, thank you .. and hope you and black cat are very well too, long time no see ...

"there is nothing wrong with having a measured approach in this issue particularly for the sake of Dr Scot Jnr's future career."

Agree and it is for the future of 'all' the juniors, not just Scot jr. But this 'measured approach' makes this case, as you put it, a landmark where attudes have to change to reflect our modern times. Those in power need to understand that they are in power to 'serve' and not to 'abuse' just because they made it to 'high rank' .. afterall, they are only employees paid for through the public purse!

And the GMC need not scratch it's head, it just needs to also understand that they too are there to 'serve' the medical profession, and 'protect' it's intrests and that includes protecting the interests of the juniors too. So all they need to do is 'the right thing' ... the issue is very clear so no 'scratching heads' needed .. I am sure they know everybody is watching and is waiting! ;-)

Anonymous said...

Dr G

I doubt you have been in much trouble in your life. I suspect you haven't. I also suspect you like to look over others in judgment.

I have explained this before, it was either Dr Scott at the GMC or Prof Paice. Now, which one would you have preferred. I would like you to consider that issue.

Secondly, until you have had an injustice done to you, you won't have a concept of tactical issues to achieve justice, to improve the future and to set a precedent.

Finally, he is reinstated because of moves made to achieve that. You won't understand them but nevertheless it happened - one of them included the discovery of what the GMC rules actually entailed.

Now, the fact remains Dr G, Civil Serfer was identified, you could be identified at anytime or anyday, do you therefore feel it is legitimate to have stalking genes or regulatory bodies? What would you therefore have us all do - sit around counting the chickens hoping the rest of the profession will save junior doctors.

Lastly, Gordon Caldwell posted something during the episode screaming for the MPS or MDU or BMA. In reality none of them are there to save any doctor. That is a stark reality.

It is as I am aware a trait of people like your good self to walk away while others are sinking. This isn't a habit of mine.

If Scot Jnr did not want to stand by his right to free speech then he should not have opened his mouth. Even if he objected, the complaint would not be withdrawn, even if I withdrew it, the complaint would not be withdrawn because under the Medical Act, the GMC can proceed on its own volition. So, in summary, an action needed to be taken at a certain time because I had internal information on the fate of Scot Jnr. It was a tough call but I made it - now I have to carry it through.

If doctors do not see the justification of this and they do not see the mistreatment meted out by Paice on a large number of junior doctors - then they deserve the current profession. Dangers are coming - and if you Dr G don't change your supine attitude, one day even you will sink and I won't be there to save you - because I shall be in Hawaii.

I therefore suggest you are a bit more helpful in this issue rather than being a moaning little minnie. I know you are a hospital consultant - act like a person, stop thinking you are above the rest of the world. Start using that clever brain of yours and see what is in front of you and other doctors in the future. The future isn't bright. Being a scared rabbit isn't going to improve matters either.


Dr Rita Pal
NHS Exposed
NHS Exposed Blog

Anonymous said...

Opps - I meant "stalking deans" not genes :)> Apologies Dr G

NHS Exposed
NHS Exposed Blog

Dr Grumble said...

What a lot of comments on a post which is really just a link and a question.

It is too late now but is it fair to make a martyr of Dr Scott in an attempt to give a bloody nose to those perceived as being responsible for the training debacle over a matter which has very little if anything to do with MTAS? All the indications are that Dr Scott would like to lie low.

The best interests of Dr Scott would have been served by everybody fanning themselves with a large straw hat. His unwise scatological missive is now getting a much wider airing. That is not good for Dr Scott who comes over as childish and thoroughly unprofessional in his approach and out of touch with the world of work where we all know that you need to tread very carefully.